# Battery School

31 posts / 0 new
Battery School

So, anyway, I'm over here in my lab thinking about circuits and wonder about the inherent impedance of a 9 Volt battery.

To speak in greater detail, I'm wondering whether the impedance of the battery is low enough to consider it a useful path to signal ground in an audio circuit.

Otherwise I could add a bypass capacitor to bring signal ground up past the battery and viola.

Oh I know, let's check Wikipedia.

Checking Wikipedia for 9 Volt Battery

The link gave a link for data on a 9 Volt Alkaline and here's what it says:

43K

620 PULSE.

Um, I used the term "inherent impedance" but...

I tend to think a "LOAD" is the circuit the battery is supplying voltage to, whereas the impedance of the battery itself would be a "source" impedance, which may equate with "inherent" impedance.

But wait. We have an alternate phantom power source and... I strongly suspect that a bypass capacitor would be recommended and since such a capacitor is probably advisable also with the battery, I think we've reached a decision.

That's it for the day. No more thinking until tomorrow.

Carl Blare

Is the opposition to the flow of alternating current. How can a DC device like a battery have an impedance?

Druid Hills Radio AM-1710- Dade City, FL. Unlicensed operation authorized by the Part 15 Department of the FCC and our Resident Hobby Agent.

In an audio circuit that is battery powered there is AC present in the form of the audio signal which is referenced to ground but the AC impedance of the battery will raise the AC component above signal ground by the internal AC resistance of the battery unless, as I'm here pre-supposing, a bypass electrolytic is used to bypass the battery and raise signal ground to the AC audio.

Everything has an internal impedance. Even our heads, which also function on DC with brain waves being AC.

DC is AC standing still.

Carl Blare

My question pertains to 9 Volt batteries but this reading from the Instruction Manual for my Smart AA Battery Charger suggests that battery resistance is a thing:

"The charger will analyze the dynamic internal resistance  by applying a load current and this current reading is referred to the voltage drop detected on the battery... etc."

It seems to me both the DC and AC in a circuit need to complete a full circle (circuit) for a device to operate at optimum.

Carl Blare

hmmmmm.... a new way to describe DC.

Mark

There is a classic symptom of the failure of the bypass capacitor across the battery in battery powered radios called motorboating.  This is a low frequency oscillation which sounds like "putt...putt...putt.." hence the nickname.

What happens is when the bypass capacitor becomes weak the internal resistance of the battery allows the supply voltage to drop when the speaker is drawing current and this drop causes a decrease in the signal to the speaker which causes the supply voltage to rise which increases the signal to the speaker which causes the supply voltage to drop and so on. (was this as much fun to read as it was to type?)  A good bypass capacitor will stabilize the supply voltage and prevent this oscillation.  For this reason it is good practice to place a bypass capacitor across a battery supply.

As energy is extracted from a battery the internal resistance increases so this effect is most pronounced with a weak battery.  A weak battery can have a normal terminal voltage under no load but still not be suitable for use.  Batteries need to be tested under load for this reason.  If, when under load, the terminal voltage is low then the battery needs replacement.

Neil

Thank you Neil for filling in with knowledge my technical books don't mention.

Your opening sentence in paragraph 2 reads:  "What happens is when the bypass capacitor becomes weak the internal resistance of the battery allows the supply voltage to drop..."

Did you mean to say "when the bypass capacitor becomes weak" or "when the battery becomes weak"?

If the former, what constitutes a weak bypass capacitor?

Carl Blare

I was referring to the capicator becoming "weak" meaning the capacitance is reduced.  This happens with age and temperature as the electrolyte dries out and the capacitance decreases and the ESR (internal resistance) increases so the cap is no longer effective in dampening the quick changes in voltage.

Neil

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm using 100 uF for the bypass but in other circuits in books a variety of values are used for the same purpose.

How is the value chosen?

Carl Blare

There are equations which can be used to select a value based on the lowest freequency to suppress, the AC current expected, and the allowable voltage changes but for a one time prototype a rule of thumb I use is 1 uF for each mA of current supplied by the battery.

It would seem that bigger is better but the larger the capacitance generally the larger the ESR so it is a compromise.

Neil

From the "Give Credit Where Credit Is Due" department:

Neil, you are a better educator on these topics than this huge stack of books I have here which mainly put weight on the floorboards.

I think I can do all the things you suggested!

Feeling smarter isn't that frequent a thing.

Carl Blare

Neil advises:  "For a one time prototype a rule of thumb I use is 1 uF for each mA of current supplied by the battery."

My (2) electret microphone capsules are each rated at 1.0 mA, which easily works out to 2 uF for the bypass capacitor.

We have been talking about bypassing the battery, but there is also the matter of placing a bypass cap at the source of a FET (in some cases)... unless you say otherwise I will suppose that the same rule applies.

Carl Blare

Ever notice some circuits will parallel a large electrolytic with a small value like .1 uf or less?

Electrolytics have an inductance which at higher frequencies raises the impedance.  Think about how they're made.  Two long sheets of foil rolled into coils separated by insulation.

As such the reactance of the coil offsets the capacitive reactance.

Suppose an.electrolytic can have a resonant frequency like a coil?

Charter Member - Association of Low Power Broadcasters

Chairman - ALPB

I am not sure of your circuit but generally a source bypass cap is used in a common source amplifier where the signal is taken from the drain.  In this case the cap functions to raise the AC gain of the amplifier and the value is based on the lower cutoff frequency desired.  For a FET this is C = 1/(2*pi*R*f) where R is the source resistance.  For a bipolar transistor it is a bit more complicated since the resistances seen by the base appear at the emitter and have to be accounted.

If your signal is taken from the source (a source follower) then no bypass cap should be used.

Neil

Carl - you should tell people more about

your "Smart AA Charger" if you haven't

Brooce, Hartford

NOISE AND STATIC RADIO

Hi Brooce... I have posted about the Smart Charger and talked about it on the show, but no longer remember where or what.

I will talk about it again soon... it's very interesting stuff.

It has made charging batteries fun and I keep it running so my portables always have fully charged power.

Carl Blare

It's a unique charger and it's

much better for the batteries.

Brooce

NOISE AND STATIC RADIO

Neil, in you Reply # 15 you give the formula for determining the capacitor value to bypass the source resistor.

The numbers I used in the equation include:

R = 6.8k

lowest frequency = 80 Hz

The result I get is .0000002

What value do you come up with running the same numbers?

Carl Blare

I figured 0.29 uF but be aware that the equation was for bypassing a source resistor in a common source amplifier where the signal is taken from the drain.  From what you said dirung the ALPB TeamSpeak meeting this is not the case for your circuit.

To calculate the needed C the resistance "seen" by the capacitor needs to be used.  For a source follower used as I think you have this would include the source resistor, the transformer resistance, the a.c. resistance seen looking into the source of the FET, and the transformed a.c. resistance ol the load.  This involves drawing the a.c. equivalent circuit of your circuit and calculating the R to use.

It is not as complicated as it appears and if you will provide your circuit diagram I can explain this.

Neil

Oh, I follow that.

Amazing that so much is going on in such an otherwise small circuit.

Your recollection from the meeting description of the diagram is correct.

Today, after I make my rounds and tend to a few things I'll scan and post the circuit for Alpmic 16.3c.

Carl Blare

Hey Hi Everybody!

PREFACE - The last hour was spent poking at the wierd software supplied with my scanner.

It is documented in a way that causes me to prefer a coma to being conscious.

It tells me I'm building a PDF file when all I want is a JPEG.

If I am persistent I end up with a JPEG but I can't grasp the logic so it never gets easier.

By this time you should admire me for the effort.

ON TO BUSINESS - We are building a microphone based around no-longer-available Radio Shack discontinued electret mic capsules. It's called the Alpmic and an earlier version of it is documented at the ALPB Website.

Neil Radio8Z has been educating me on aspects of circuit design and this is a higher learning experience.

THE LATEST CONCOCTION

FRUSTRATION ALERT: Repeated attempts to link the Circuit Diagram have belligerently failed. I won't put up with it and am driving away at a high rate of speed to show my contempt for the internet's failure to show even a hint of artificial intelligence. So long suckers!!

Carl Blare

Posting JPEG Not Be Easy

Carl Blare

The Circuit Diagram May Be Seeable

The following is circuit data:

B! = standard 9 Volt battery

C1 = 2 uF based on the 2-mic capsules pulling 1 mA apiece

C2 = As yet undecided

M1, M2 = Discontinued Radio Shack off-the-rack electret capsules

R1, R2 = 909 Ohms

R3 = the resistor that sets the voltage seen by the mic capsules... the data sheet tells us it will accept 1 to 10 VDC and the Optimum is 4.5 VDC. Our circuit provides 3.69 VDC;

___ discussion: The output destination, the "load", is 2K (RDL RU-MX4 Mixer); According to Neumann Microphone Corporation White Paper source impedance should be 1/5 of load impedance in condenser mic circuits. This circuit does not achieve that ideal but uses available parts;

T1 = is a transformer bought for a few cents at a surplus store and is otherwise unknown. It has worked in previous tests as a viable mic transformer;

Present subjective impression of how it sounds... not too bad, acceptable, maybe pretty good.

Any questions should be addressed to me.

Carl Blare

In the 1990s my wife and I knew everything about print and video, including the fact that JPEG was a color format and some other thing was better for black and white, possibly BMP.

Now I only know that I don't know.

Carl Blare

Without the value of R3 and the d.c. resistances of the transformer windings and the turns or impedance ratio the calculation for C2 given the cutoff frequency cannot be done.

Probably the best way to proceed is to try different values for C2 until you get the sound you want.  Bear in mind that a change in the load impedance will affect the cutoff frequency for this circuit.

Neil

Many thanks Neil for contributing to the microhone project.

Given the unknown status of the transformer we move to the other option you recommend... comparing the result of various capacitors for C2 until we hear the "best" result.

If curiosity arises we have a program utilizing this version (v16.3c) of the Alpmic so give it a listen unless you don't.

Blare OnAir July 4th in the TeamSpeak Open Room

Carl Blare

Changed R3 to 6.6k to bring up the voltage seen by the mic capsules to 4.169 V.

Changed C2 (by the way, it was initially 1 uF as a starting point in the previous version) to 10 uF, the next closest value available on hand.

Alpmic V 16.3d Blare OnAir Lite

Carl Blare

Neil said:  "Probably the best way to proceed is to try different values for C2 until you get the sound you want.  Bear in mind that a change in the load impedance will affect the cutoff frequency for this circuit."

To make sure we are talking about the same thing...

The "cutoff frequency" is the low end of the frequency spectrum, right?

Since in any case the cutoff frequency will be below voice range I am wondering how to "listen" for a difference without the presence of very low frequency audio.

I do not have any musical instruments or other low frequency devices.

In fact I'm thinking that whether the frequency rolls off at 80 Hz or 40 Hz doesn't make any difference for a voice mic.

Carl Blare

Taking a break from ongoing computer complications we reviewed the state of our AA Ni-MH batteries as used in the TECSUN PL-310 and Grundig FR-200, the radios used for outdoor activity and range testing.

Lately the TECSUN, which has a 3-Bar Battery Indicator and serves as our battery checker, was continuously showing 3-Full Bars that never changed.

The batteries all looked low on the Radio Shack MICRONTA 22-032A Battery Tester, so we launched a review of everything involved.

First of all, rechargable AA's themselves...

Months back when we installed the OPUS BT-C3100 V2.2 Smart Charger we also ordered a large pack of new AA Re-chargeables rated at 2400 mHh, but in practice they presented an unexpected problem: the type we got from Amazon are slightly thicker than standard batteries, and will not fit in one of the battery-wells inside the TECSUN.

This forced us into the position of mixing old and new batteries and different power ratings, i.e., 2400, 2100, 2050, and 1500 mAh.

The TECSUN contains a distinct warning: DO NOT MIX OLD AND NEW BATTERIES. But it seems to me they are talking in that case about Alkaline (un-rechargeable) batteries and not re-chargeables.

And another caution from the TECSUN Manual, "Do not mix different power ratings".  But this advisory is printed in the section on using the TECSUN with a USB power cable to re-charge batteries in the radio... they certainly wouldn't re-charge evenly if they were of differing power ratings... but we never re-charge them in the radio, so that caution may not apply to simply using the batteries to power the radio.

Also learned was that the radio needs to be told whether the installed batteries are Alkaline or Ni-MH, and there is a button for entering the correct information manually. Previously we thought this happened automatically.

The manual told us how to get a fresh start and get rid of those "full bars" on the battery indicator: simply allow the radio to sit around with no batteries, and as the internal charge decays the readings all default to a reset status.

All the batteries are being re-charged in the Smart Charger and everything is swell.

Carl Blare

The reason it is not advisable to mix batteries (actually they are cells) of different capacities or charge states is that when connected in series some batteries will discharge before others.  When this happens, the discharged batteries will be subjected to reverse polarity which will likely damage them.  Also, during charging a series string of batteries the lower capacity ones will reach full charge before the higher capacity ones which can cause them to overheat and be damaged.

Modern Lithium-Ion batteries with multiple series cells are properly managed by electronic circuits which monitor the voltage of each cell during charge and discharge to prevent such problems.

Neil